Bowling Forums, Bowling Discussion and Bowling Talk
Sign up Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 4 of 5      Prev   1   2   3   4   5   Next
avabob

Registered:
Posts: 428
Reply with quote  #46 
Everyone who wants to should have the opportunity to bowl in a scratch league. Everyone who prefers handicap should have that opportunity. Handicaps should be high enough to significantly reduce the advantage of the higher average, but not eliminate it
themrfreeze

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 3,809
Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare



Bowling has always used handicaps football does,'t...maybe that' why 100 pound kids don't square off against 250 pounders in football. HS Wresting has weight classes


And at least around here, high schools are in different classes/divisions when it comes to sports like football and baseball, largely based on how big the school is (which roughly equates to how good their teams are). 

When I bowled junior traveling league back in the 1980s, there were 32 teams in the league, separated into 4 divisions based solely on team average.  You only bowled the teams in your division.  This made things fair...the teams you bowled were roughly as good as you are so everybody had a chance to win their division.

However, all of the HS bowling teams for the entire county are in the same league.  If they're not willing to break up the league into divisions based on team averages, then using bowling's traditional handicapping system would be totally called for, yet they don't do it. 


Dare

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,277
Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by avabob
Everyone who wants to should have the opportunity to bowl in a scratch league. Everyone who prefers handicap should have that opportunity. Handicaps should be high enough to significantly reduce the advantage of the higher average, but not eliminate it



When I was younger pot bowling and scratch
leagues were the best practice 
mrbowling300

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 11,654
Reply with quote  #49 
The only scratch league I know of in my area is the Detroit Travel All Star League.  Tough competition.  

Also, scratch tournaments are fun as well.  


timebomb

Registered:
Posts: 15
Reply with quote  #50 

I've been mulling over the formulae used for calculating handicaps in Singapore and the USA and this is what I think. 

You all are right that ladies and seniors shouldn't be awarded extra handicaps. My reason is the true measure of a bowler's ability is in his or her average score. So gender and age shouldn't be taken into account when handicaps are calculated. 

But the reason ladies and seniors are given extra handicaps is widely accepted in Singapore is due to the fact that our handicap formula is so stingy. If we can adopt what the USBC recommended, I'm sure the ladies and seniors won't ask for more. 

It will be very hard to persuade the high-average bowlers in my country to accept the USBC formula. But among the leagues I played in, one is rather unusual, in that it's open only to bowlers whose average is 180 or lower. I am a 180 average bowler and as you might have guessed by now, I have consistently finished among the top 3 every season. The last season was completed on Tuesday and I was champion. It's the 3rd time I've finished as champion. And you know what? I don't feel good at all. Instead, I feel like I'm a bully. 

So I spoke to the convenor and managed to convince him that for the next season, we should use this formula : Handicap = 90% of (180 minus Average) and no caps. The old formula was 67% of (180 minus Average) and subjected to caps. It was easy for me to persuade the convenor to make the change as I'm the high-average bowler in this league. Fortunately, the guy who finished 2nd supported my suggestion and helped persuade the convenor to accept my proposal. He and I are the only 2 players in the league with a zero handicap and we finished first and second. It just shows how screwed-up our handicap system is and I didn't realise this until I discovered what the USBC recommended. 

It's going to be harder for me to do well the next season using the new formula. But I'm still confident I'll finish among the top 3. If I do, I will propose the formula be changed again to Handicap = 100% of (180 minus Average). If I'm champion, I want to feel good about it, that every bowler had an almost equal chance. 

Oldbowler

Registered:
Posts: 327
Reply with quote  #51 
Congratulations to you for wanting to feel like you actually earned your recognition.  There are many situations with handicapping where teams are rewarded for having their bowlers NOT show up to bowl.  We had that yesterday in our Senior league.  The opposing team was allowed to bowl with one bowler present, which meant they had 210 for a vacancy, and two 220's for absent members, giving the remaining bowler 650 pins before he ever bowled the first ball.  As the second place team, we didn't have a chance unless we bowled over our averages every game, which is not likely to happen, and didn't.  I had to bowl a 255 to win the 3rd game.

Again, I applaud your willingness to earn recognition.

__________________
Old bowlers never die, they just fade away.
themrfreeze

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 3,809
Reply with quote  #52 
210 for a vacancy score?  The rule book says it should be 120.

Oldbowler

Registered:
Posts: 327
Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by themrfreeze
210 for a vacancy score?  The rule book says it should be 120.



Our lower average bowlers didn't want just a leg up, they wanted the advantage, so they voted in 100% of 220 minus your average, and a vacancy score of 210.  We have folks posting scores over 300 with that system.  I bowl for personal satisfaction, otherwise I wouldn't bowl with the Seniors.

__________________
Old bowlers never die, they just fade away.
bowlersensi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 77
Reply with quote  #54 
Quote:
Originally Posted by themrfreeze
210 for a vacancy score?  The rule book says it should be 120.



"Unless otherwise provided by league rules"

Rule 105 – Absentee and Vacancy Scores
d. A vacancy score is to be used when a team has an incomplete roster. Vacancy scores are subject to
 the following, unless otherwise provided by league rule:

1. Adult leagues:
 a) The vacancy score shall be 120.
 b) In handicap leagues, the handicap must be based on the vacancy score used. Handicap
 shall not be limited.

When I was on the mens league here they used "0" for a vacancy score but it received full handicap (90% of 230). Everybody was pretty happy with that.


__________________
Rin, Pyōh, Tōh, Sha, Kai, Jin, Retsu, Zai, Zen.........Kō
timebomb

Registered:
Posts: 15
Reply with quote  #55 

Quote:
Again, I applaud your willingness to earn recognition. 

Thank you so much for your kind words, Oldbowler. I haven't heard of the term "vacancy score" but I supposed it is the same as "blind score" which is the term that is used here to denote an absentee's score. I'm kind of surprised your league rules are so generous to bowlers who don't turn up to play. Here, a blind score is set at 130 pins scratch. No handicaps are added. It's an extremely easy score to beat. Bowlers know that so if they can't play on the scheduled date, they usually either pre-bowl or post-bowl. 

 

timebomb

Registered:
Posts: 15
Reply with quote  #56 

You might find this a bit interesting........

In Singapore bowling circles, the term "roll-off" is used when a team or a bowler plays their league match unopposed either before or after the scheduled date. I didn't know we were using it incorrectly until I saw a PBA stepladder final when 2 players ended their match with the exact same score. So a "roll-off" was called and it was a frame-by-frame event. A roll-off therefore is a tie-breaker and that is what the dictionary says too. 

I tried to persuade the people-in-charge that we should make the correction, that we shouldn't use the term "roll-off" when what we actually meant was "pre-bowl or post-bowl." But I guess they saw me as some sort of grammar nazi. They knew I was right but insisted that this is Singapore's way of describing a pre or post-bowl. 

Dare

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,277
Reply with quote  #57 
vacancy score to me is when you don't have a regular bowler on your team.
Oldbowler

Registered:
Posts: 327
Reply with quote  #58 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare
vacancy score to me is when you don't have a regular bowler on your team.
  

Dare, you are correct.  Our league allows teams to bowl with less than a full roster, so many teams are carrying a vacancy and allowed 210 pins for the vacancy.  The team we bowled had a permanent vacancy so they had 210 plus 220 each for the absent bowlers.  (Both of whom blew off bowling to go fishing.)

I have my own opinion of people who sign up to do something and treat it as optional.

__________________
Old bowlers never die, they just fade away.
Dare

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,277
Reply with quote  #59 
  

Dare, you are correct.  Our league allows teams to bowl with less than a full roster, so many teams are carrying a vacancy and allowed 210 pins for the vacancy.  The team we bowled had a permanent vacancy so they had 210 plus 220 each for the absent bowlers.  (Both of whom blew off bowling to go fishing.)

I have my own opinion of people who sign up to do something and treat it as optional.[/QUOTE


I have my own opinion of people that won't join a league
but show up to sub every week. Ban subs from the pot and
you'd never see them.
CObowler

Registered:
Posts: 48
Reply with quote  #60 
Unless nearly everyone in your league averages well over 210, a 210 vacancy score is way too high.  When a vacancy score is similar to the highest averages in a league, teams have no incentive to fill open roster spots.                              

The vacancy score should be about the average of the bottom third or bottom quarter of the league -- enough to give teams a fair chance to win some games, but not so high as to give a shorthanded team a definite advantage on those nights with tougher scoring conditions.

 
 
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.