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Dare

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Reply with quote  #31 
Usually a 150 avg bowler is a 150 avg on a good or bad shot. Seems some
people never improve
Oldbowler

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare
Usually a 150 avg bowler is a 150 avg on a good or bad shot. Seems some
people never improve


Some don't care to improve, and some milk their handicap as much as possible.  My observation is that the lane condition affects the lower average bowler less than the rest of us.

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timebomb

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Reply with quote  #33 

Almost every bowler I know thinks there is no such thing as a fair handicap system. But then, why do most leagues allow for handicaps in the first place? It's because the organisers want greater participation and they can achieve this only if the participants feel they have an equal chance of winning. So equity is the purpose and the rules should work towards that. While surfing around in other forums, I read a quote by a bowler who said, "In god we trust but everyone else bring data." The USBC is the only one I know who provided data to back up their rules so I would pay more attention to what they say. 

In my leagues where the handicap system is often 50% of 190, the low and median average teams have no chance at all. Season after season, it's the same team made up of high-average bowlers that win all the time. And they don't just win but are runaway winners. Often, they have accumulated so many points they have already won the league several weeks before it ends. 

But having said all that, I'm in 2 minds if the USBC system will work well for us. For one thing, I think sandbagging will become a huge problem as the more generous a handicap system is, the more likely bowlers will be tempted to sandbag. And I can't imagine how the high-average bowlers here will feel. Under our current system, my handicap as a 180 average bowler is 7 and the guy who averages 200 or more is zero. I will usually lose when I meet him on the lanes as 7 pins is not a big disadvantage to him, especially if his average is about 220 or higher. But under the USBC system, my handicap goes up to 60 and the 200 average bowler gets 40. I will have a 20 pin advantage and I can tell you now I will most likely win. The sport of bowling is such it's very much a mental game. Confidence matters a lot. And I will feel very confident under the USBC system. The high-average bowler, however will feel a lot of pressure and the higher the pressure, the less likely he can bowl his average. 

I was working on a post which I thought I would put up on my facebook to share with all my bowler friends. My intention was to spread what I've learnt of the USBC system, in the hope that enough bowlers here will be convinced the USBC has a better handicap system. But now, I'm having second thoughts........For the time being, I will just keep what I've learnt to myself. 

Dare

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Reply with quote  #34 
100% handicap has to be 100% of the high avg in the league. How do you do that? Change
weekly the basics of handicap? I like 90% of 210. Works in my senior league.
bowlersensi

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timebomb

Under our current system, my handicap as a 180 average bowler is 7 and the guy who averages 200 or more is zero. I will usually lose when I meet him on the lanes as 7 pins is not a big disadvantage to him, especially if his average is about 220 or higher. But under the USBC system, my handicap goes up to 60 and the 200 average bowler gets 40. I will have a 20 pin advantage and I can tell you now I will most likely win.



Quote:
The sport of bowling is such it's very much a mental game. Confidence matters a lot. And I will feel very confident under the USBC system. The high-average bowler, however will feel a lot of pressure and the higher the pressure, the less likely he can bowl his average.



You don't have a 20 pin advantage.

Assume the handicap is 100% of 220

You ave. 180 with a handicap of 40, His ave. 200 with a handicap of 20

If you both shoot your average, you both will have a 220 game a tie.

Quote:
I can tell you now I will most likely win


Yes the mental aspect of the game is important and having good confidence can help you. But don't assume the higher average player is just going to crack up and start bowling bad when he see's your handicap.

Higher average bowlers usually have a stronger mental game than someone with a lower average and they too have confidence in their abilities.

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themrfreeze

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timebomb

Almost every bowler I know thinks there is no such thing as a fair handicap system. But then, why do most leagues allow for handicaps in the first place? It's because the organisers want greater participation and they can achieve this only if the participants feel they have an equal chance of winning.



A few years back my son (who was in 7th grade at the time) make the high school varsity bowling team for our town.  Once the season was underway I discovered that the local high school league is a scratch league.  There were teams of bowlers with 220+ averages and teams from smaller schools with 120 averages bowling scratch against each other.  It was a joke...some teams hadn't taken a single point in years.  If there was ever a good example of why handicapped leagues should exist, this was it.  I can't imagine what level of motivation a lot of these teams had when they knew they were bowling against a high average team and had zero chance of winning.


SpinBowler300

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Reply with quote  #37 
Some high school football and basketball teams know they suck, but they still happily play the game. Just because a high school has a horrible bowling team, you want to put in handicaps for high school bowling? 

Let's put the bowling average system into basketball. High School Team A averages 90 points a game. High School Team B average 60 points a a game. 100% handicap as the USBC says to make it fair. Therefore, High School Team B gets 30 points on the board before tip-off. Would you go to a High School game to see that? I don't think so.

At some point these student-athletes have to wake up to the real world where if you want to win you have to get better to be the best. Not to have it handed to you. There is no place better to do that than in school sports.

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bowlersensi

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by themrfreeze


A few years back my son (who was in 7th grade at the time) make the high school varsity bowling team for our town.  Once the season was underway I discovered that the local high school league is a scratch league.  There were teams of bowlers with 220+ averages and teams from smaller schools with 120 averages bowling scratch against each other.  It was a joke...some teams hadn't taken a single point in years.  If there was ever a good example of why handicapped leagues should exist, this was it.  I can't imagine what level of motivation a lot of these teams had when they knew they were bowling against a high average team and had zero chance of winning.




In That situation a Tier system like Oldbowler mentioned might work well.

Or

They maybe could have used:

Individual Performance Points System:

Where performance Points are solely based on the performance of the individual’s scores each week (Your basically not bowling against any one particular bowler, Other than maybe yourself). If a player scores above their average, they earn points. If the player scores below their average, they lose points.

A point range for Performance Points, can also be added. This is the number of pins a bowler must come within their average for awarding points.

Examples:
If the player bowls 1 or more pins above average, they receive 1 point.
If the player bowls 1 or more pins below average, they lose 1 point.
If the player bowls average, they receive no points.
(Ex: 180 ave. shots 600, they'd get 1 point, 220 ave. shoots 700, they get 1 point, 170 ave. shoots 500, they lose 1 point.)

Or say:

For every 10 pins above average, they receive 1 point.
For every 10 pins below average, they lose 1 point.
If the player just bowls average, they receive no points.
(Ex: 180 ave. shots 600, they'd get 6 points, 220 ave. shoots 700, they get 4 points, 170 ave. shoots 500, they lose 1 point.)

This is basically a P.O.A. (Pins Over Average) system that includes a penalty for bowling under average.

Lower average and improving bowlers can a lot of times bowl more over average than higher one (Which is one of the reason High Ave. bowlers cite when complaining about high handicaps.)



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Oldbowler

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Reply with quote  #39 
I just came back from subbing in the league I used to bowl in for the last 4 years.  When they voted how to pay out the prize fund, the winning vote was to pay all teams equally at the end of the season.  Huh?  Now I know why the averages are so low this year.  If it doesn't matter if you win or lose, why try?  Personally I bowl for personal satisfaction but if you are just going to give the money back to the teams at the end of the year, why have a prize fund at all?

That applies to handicapping as well.  If there is no incentive to get better because the handicap makes you all equal, why try?

Equally rewarding poor performance or lack of acquired skill makes no sense to me.

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Dare

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Reply with quote  #40 
Old Bowler do you know Leon Sheffield? He used to have the Pro Shop
at Fern Valley Strike and Spares. He lives out in the Dixie Highway area
and bowled at Dixie Bowl
bowlersensi

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbowler
I just came back from subbing in the league I used to bowl in for the last 4 years.  When they voted how to pay out the prize fund, the winning vote was to pay all teams equally at the end of the season.  Huh?  Now I know why the averages are so low this year.  If it doesn't matter if you win or lose, why try?  Personally I bowl for personal satisfaction but if you are just going to give the money back to the teams at the end of the year, why have a prize fund at all?

That applies to handicapping as well.  If there is no incentive to get better because the handicap makes you all equal, why try?

Equally rewarding poor performance or lack of acquired skill makes no sense to me.


Yeah paying all teams equally doesn't really make sense. The top half of the league is basically just handing the lower half free money (That's Why the lower half would go for it) and taking a loss.

It would have been fairer to everyone to just eliminate the prize fund all together and lower the weekly fees.

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Dare

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Reply with quote  #42 
Friday Lg I started this year pays the same for all with a payout
to the first and second team. They add about 400$ a week to
the prize fund threw half and half sales[so they say]
themrfreeze

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinBowler300
Some high school football and basketball teams know they suck, but they still happily play the game. Just because a high school has a horrible bowling team, you want to put in handicaps for high school bowling? 


Yes.  Bowling is different than other sports like baseball and football...handicaps are a normal part of the game.  To deny high school teams this option simply because OTHER high school sports don't use handicaps makes no sense.

And as a parent who saw first hand the demoralizing effect of the disparities between teams, making them bowl scratch does nothing but take away the desire of these children to participate.  Telling them they need to "wake up to the real world" is crap.  If the league is handicapped and a team loses, then it's a life lesson that's been learned.  Forcing a 120 average bowler to compete scratch against a 220 average bowler is akin to forcing the kid into a gunfight and giving him a knife to fight with...it serves no beneficial purpose to make a kid feel like cannon fodder.


SpinBowler300

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Reply with quote  #44 
But it's okay to make the kid from the other high school sports be "cannon fodder" when their teams sucks because that's the way its always been? Other high school sports play "scratch" as you call it. Bad teams lose 56 - 0 all the time in high school football. I've yet to hear or read a parent complaint that there should some way to equalize the score so their son's football team has a better chance to win.

Bowling should be held to different standard? I think not. Luckily, state high school associations and athletic directors agree with me.


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Dare

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Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinBowler300
But it's okay to make the kid from the other high school sports be "cannon fodder" when their teams sucks because that's the way its always been? Other high school sports play "scratch" as you call it. Bad teams lose 56 - 0 all the time in high school football. I've yet to hear or read a parent complaint that there should some way to equalize the score so their son's football team has a better chance to win.

Bowling should be held to different standard? I think not. Luckily, state high school associations and athletic directors agree with me.




Bowling has always used handicaps football does,'t...maybe that' why 100 pound kids don't square off against 250 pounders in football. HS Wresting has weight classes
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