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bowlersensi

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Reply with quote  #16 
@Timebomb How about in effort to clarify the discussion of having differing handicaps for women and ages , answer a couple of questions.

1- Do you think women are inherently inferior bowlers to men thus in need of a advantage? (If so why are they inferior?)

1a- If their not inferior, then why should they have a different handicap?

2- In regards to bowlers of different ages (Lets assume older bowlers), what about them says that they should have a advantage in handicap that others do not?

2a- If it's just physical ability, Then What about a younger bowler that has some physical disability that joins a league, should they get more handicap?

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timebomb

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But this Just shows the differences in our cultures, Over here in the US equality between Genders, Races and ages in everything is a big issue.

I like this statement a lot. Because I'm so glad you understand the difference in our cultures would make us view issues differently. Just as an aside, many Singaporeans (not me though) think it's just so dumb your country has so lax gun laws, resulting in high numbers of your people dying from gunshot wounds every year. Here in Singapore, almost no one other than the police are allowed to possess firearms. We're a population of about 5 and a half million and it would make front page news if anyone here was killed by a bullet. For many years, we didn't have such a single statistic and the only case I can remember of anyone dying from a gunshot was when a police officer committed suicide by shooting himself with his own gun. But I'm rambling. I deviated into gun laws not because I think your people are dumb but because I understand our cultures, our history and our politics would cause us to have different opinions over various issues. 

timebomb

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Reply with quote  #18 

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@Timebomb How about in effort to clarify the discussion of having differing handicaps for women and ages , answer a couple of questions.

I would be happy to answer your questions, Bowlersensi. I came here to learn and understand more of your handicap system so I wouldn't mind sharing ours with you. I want to apologise for mistaking you to be the one who made the "I am stunned........" comment. I reacted badly because I felt that comment was snarky. Could be what I felt was due to a difference in cultures too, I would agree. 

Quote:
1- Do you think women are inherently inferior bowlers to men thus in need of a advantage? (If so why are they inferior?)

I wouldn't like to describe women as being inferior bowlers but I would say, when compared to men, it's harder for the women to excel. It's not just in bowling but in almost all sports. The fact is, you would be hard-pressed to name a sport where men and women compete against each other on equal terms. The only two I found when I googled are Equestrian and Sailing. I do understand the game of bowling does not require extraordinary strength in order to excel but I think muscle-mass does play a part. Of course, there are many women bowlers who play far better than men. In fact, in my league this season, the bowler who got the highest 4 game series score was a lady who hit 1020. But our handicap system does not give her any advantage as her handicap for being a 200+ average bowler, was zero. 

 

Quote:
In regards to bowlers of different ages (Lets assume older bowlers), what about them says that they should have a advantage in handicap that others do not?

The older a person is, the harder it becomes for him. Not just in sports but in most aspects of life. So that is the reason our trains have reserved seats for senior citizens and it's generally accepted that it's only considerate and courteous for a young person to give up his seat on a bus or a train to an old person. Does not matter if the old person is actually a marathon champion. It's just the way it is. 

I once participated in an international tournament for senior citizens only. It was just a fun tournament for old bowlers so I wasn't representing my country. There were many bowlers from countries around East Asia and even the USA took part. So do we get an extra handicap when every bowler is an old person? The organisers fix our handicaps according to age. For every year above the age of 70, a bowler gets an extra pin. So a 90 year old bowler will have a handicap of 20. 

In short, if we were to argue that being older isn't a disadvantage in bowling, what would you say to the guy who's still participating at age 90? The oldest bowler in one of my leagues used to be a 93 year old man. It was a singles league and he consistently finished last, season after season. Unfortunately, our handicap system didn't help him much because the senior handicap applies equally to anyone aged 60 and above.

Quote:
If it's just physical ability, Then What about a younger bowler that has some physical disability that joins a league, should they get more handicap? 

We once had 2 bowlers who had some physical disability. They were given an extra 5 pins each, on top of the usual handicap which would be allotted to them. The 5 pins didn't help them much though. They were consistently at the bottom in the standings. 
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The point I think is not so much whether women, youths or senior citizens deserve a higher handicap but the fact our leagues want to encourage greater participation from people from all walks of life. Some bowlers, often the high-average ones, say any handicap system is inherently unfair. Why should any bowler be given a handicap in the first place? We should all bowl scratch. Yes, I would agree. The only fair handicap system is the one that does not give anyone any handicap at all. But I guarantee you the participation rate would be very poor. 

avabob

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Reply with quote  #19 
Not sure I understand any of the age or disability arguments with respect to handicap. I am 72 years old and average 210. Should I get more handicap than the 40 year old averaging 210.

timebomb

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Quote:
I am 72 years old and average 210. Should I get more handicap than the 40 year old averaging 210. 

No, I don't think you should and in Singapore, you won't. Because here, any bowler whose average is 200 or higher will have a handicap of zero. But let's say you and the 40 year old average 190, then your handicap will be 7 and his will be 5. You will have a 2 pin advantage over him. It's not much but we know games are sometimes won or lost by just 1 pin.

Dare

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timebomb

 

No, I don't think you should and in Singapore, you won't. Because here, any bowler whose average is 200 or higher will have a handicap of zero. But let's say you and the 40 year old average 190, then your handicap will be 7 and his will be 5. You will have a 2 pin advantage over him. It's not much but we know games are sometimes won or lost by just 1 pin.




Why not have the same handicaps regardless of age and hand
out participation gold stars
timebomb

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Why not have the same handicaps regardless of age and hand
out participation gold stars

I have no idea what is a participation gold star but I would suppose it's like some kind of token awarded to certain bowlers for participating. Well, if that is what it is, I don't think it will be appreciated by the bowlers here. In my league, we have a "Lane Monster" award which is given to the bowler who hits the highest score for any of the lanes in the bowling centre. There are 20 lanes but as every league match involves 2 lanes, there are only 10 such awards each season. There's no prize money. The award is just a small trophy and most of the time, the bowlers who won the awards would rather give or throw it away than bring it home. 

In any case, I'm beginning to understand better why age and gender is apparently quite a big issue with many folks here. I think it's has something to do with how your league awards points which seems very different from ours. I can't be sure as I find it difficult to understand how the points are awarded when I read your rules.

Quote:
Handicap will be 100% of 240 for each individual.

I saw this rule while surfing in this forum. I don't mean any offence but I'm quite sure my bowling friends will be absolutely stunned when they see this. In fact, I'm very sure the high-average bowlers in my league will leave if we adopt such a handicap system. Honestly, I find it difficult to understand how such a handicap system can work over where you are. My guess is, as I said earlier, the way points are awarded in every league match in the USA is vastly different from ours. I will describe our system if any of you are interested. 

bowlersensi

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Handicap will be 100% of 240 for each individual.



Quote:
Originally Posted by timebomb
 

I saw this rule while surfing in this forum. I don't mean any offence but I'm quite sure my bowling friends will be absolutely stunned when they see this. In fact, I'm very sure the high-average bowlers in my league will leave if we adopt such a handicap system. Honestly, I find it difficult to understand how such a handicap system can work over where you are. My guess is, as I said earlier, the way points are awarded in every league match in the USA is vastly different from ours. I will describe our system if any of you are interested. 



A 100% handicap is what the USBC recommends and is in the Rulebook:

100g. Handicap
A handicap league is one in which handicap is added to a bowler’s score to place bowlers and teams
with varying degrees of skill on as equitable a basis as possible for scheduled competition. The         
following applies to handicap leagues:
1. The percentage shall be 100 percent, unless otherwise provided by league rule.

It's based on a 4 year study the USBC did several years ago on handicaps.

Sample:

At 100% handicap every team has a 50-50 chance of winning.

Even at 100% handicap, as the chart above shows, the higher-average teams or bowlers still

have a decided edge. Seventy out of 100 championships still are won by the higher-average

team when 100% handicap is used. An exact 50-50 distribution of league championships would

result only if a 116% handicap was used.

You can read more here:

The Facts About Handicaps
http://www.bowlhouston.com/pdf/misc/TheFactsAboutHandicaps-2010.pdf


Something to note also is a 100% handicap basically just makes it a POA (Pins Over Average) contest where the winners are determined by the bowler or team which beats their average by the most.

Now high average bowlers might not like that, because they feel low average bowlers can bowl more over their average than them.

As for age and gender being a big issue, it has nothing to with how league points are awarded, It has to do with people wanting to be treated equally here. Women don't want a advantage given to them just because they are women and men think women are the "weaker" sex, They want to compete with men on equal terms and basically the same holds true for seniors when competing against younger players.

Now some tournament/leagues do have different divisions for Women and seniors which can have differing rules, handicaps etc. but their usually not all competing against each other.


As said earlier Age and/or Gender for the most part are not a indicator of a bowler's ability or skill level (at least not a Good one).

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timebomb

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Reply with quote  #24 

Thank you, thank you so much for posting the link. I was shocked when I first read the rules but now that I understand the reasons for those rules, I would totally agree the USBC's method of calculating handicaps is far better than the ones used in Singapore. I intend to tell all my bowler friends about the USBC guidelines and hope I can convince enough of them to feel there's a need for change. I know I will meet with a lot of resistance and cynicism as it's always hard to change a person's mind but I will try, nonetheless. 

Quote:
Women don't want a advantage given to them just because they are women and men think women are the "weaker" sex, They want to compete with men on equal terms and basically the same holds true for seniors when competing against younger players
.

I have the utmost respect for women and seniors who want to compete with men on equal terms. More power to them, I would say. But I was surfing around looking for statistics on the difference between men and women's performance in sports. And I found that generally, no matter if it's running, jumping or throwing, men tend to do better than women by about 10%. The world records in various sports speak for themselves. I also found that in mixed-gender bowling tournaments, the women are given a 8 pin advantage over the men. But like I said, I'm not going to argue when a woman insists she can compete with men on equal terms. You do what you have to do. 

https://www.straitstimes.com/sport/lim-bowls-the-men-and-women-over

SpinBowler300

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Reply with quote  #25 
Let it die, will you? Neither of you are proving a point here.
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avabob

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Reply with quote  #26 
There really is no right answer to this argument because it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to give a stronger advantage to the better bowlers, you migrate toward the Singapore model. If you want to minimize the advantage without totally eliminating it you go to at least 90%, and base it on something close to the high average in the league. This does not address sandbagging which will be present no matter what the system, if there is money involved.

As far as women, no question that men are going to average higher. However this descrepancy is addressed in the handicap system. A 150 average women is comparable to a 150 average man. There will be mire women toward the lower end of the aversge scale.
bowlersensi

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by avabob
There really is no right answer to this argument because it depends on what you are trying to accomplish.


True, It all depends on whats trying to be done at that time.

There's no truly "fair" handicap, because nobody can agree on what fair is. Because someone is always going to feel whatever handicap is used is putting them at a disadvantage.

Personally I'd like to see someone come up with a different system than the one we're using now. Theres nothing in the rules that prevents leagues from using a different system, but no ones come up with a viable one to try.

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Dare

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Reply with quote  #28 
They ran a no tap here a few years ago and they started out men needed nine pins and women eight.  
That didn't last long until it was changed. Back when I started adult leagues in the early 70's most
leagues were 90% of 200 and there was a lot of scratch leagues.You practiced and got better and acceped
how it was.
Oldbowler

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Reply with quote  #29 
I bowled a ways back with someone who had bowled overseas, in Germany I think, and said they had tiers of bowlers.  I don't remember the exact numbers but it was something along the lines of if you averaged under 120 you were in the lowest tier, 120 to 150 was the next, 150 to 175 the next, 175 to 200 and then over 200.  You bowled within your tier, with no handicapping system, so each tier was scratch.  If your average went over the tier limit, the next year you had to move up.  That put bowlers with other bowlers with comparable ability and eliminated the need for handicaps.  Makes sense to me except I bowl with a buddy who averages 40 pins less than I do, so that would mean we couldn't bowl together in a league.

Just a thought.

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avabob

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Reply with quote  #30 
Another thing about handicaps. It makes a difference whether you are talking a league season or short format tournaments. Higher percentages are less fair to higher average bowlers in short formats. Lower average bowlers can be extremely inconsistent in both directions over fewer games, giving the low average who gets hot for a couple of games a huge advantage.

Over the course of a league season the best bowlers will migrate to the top even at 90-100 % handicap
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