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Oldbowler

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Reply with quote  #1 
I was discussing handicapped leagues with a friend who pointed out something I had never paid any attention to since I am essentially an old time scratch bowler.  It plays out like this:

If every bowler bowls their average, the lower average bowlers can't ever win.

100 + 80 = 180
110 + 72 = 182
120 + 64 = 184

and so forth.

Which is apparently why quite a few league bowlers are now demanding 90% of 200, or 210, or even like my league 100% of 220.  With their handicapping system I have averaged 238,242 and 248 the last three weeks.  With the scratch series I am having, like last week at 663, that will start the other direction shortly.  I don't really care since I only bowl for fun and look at scratch scores only.

On a side note, apparently there are women using my scores with theirs to enter the mixed high game side pots without my consent or knowledge.  Since I don't gamble I can't say I am pleased about that, especially since they are unlikely to share the winnings, or tell me about it.

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Dare

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Reply with quote  #2 
100% really works  when it's based on the high average in the league
SpinBowler300

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Reply with quote  #3 
Where's the incentive to get better at the game when you immediately make the lower average bowler the same as the higher average bowler with 100% handicap? Handicap was always meant to allow the lower average teams a better "chance" to win without taking away the advantage of the better team.

100% handicap makes your league a "pins over average" league. You know who has a better chance of bowling over average since bowling has a scoring cap (300)? Lower average bowlers.

You don't here golfer's complaining and their handicap system works the same way.

Practice to get better or shut up.


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avabob

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Reply with quote  #4 
A lot of studies have shown that even at 100% the high average usually wins
Dare

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Problem is 100% penalizes the good bowlers and makes people bag even more.
Sr league I used to bowl in was 100% of 200 and the better team usually finished at the
top. When they changed it to 100% of 220 the lower average bowlers startet winning
the league. Why practice and get better
Oldbowler

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare
Problem is 100% penalizes the good bowlers and makes people bag even more.
Sr league I used to bowl in was 100% of 200 and the better team usually finished at the
top. When they changed it to 100% of 220 the lower average bowlers startet winning
the league. Why practice and get better


Why practice and get better?  Because it was never about get good and call it enough.  Practice and get better as a matter of personal pride.  If bowling league is only about winning, then that explains why leagues are dying out all over the country.  I bowl to achieve my personal best, even at my age.  When I can't roll a ball anymore, I'll get one with a handle and keep on.

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Dare

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbowler


Why practice and get better?  Because it was never about get good and call it enough.  Practice and get better as a matter of personal pride.  If bowling league is only about winning, then that explains why leagues are dying out all over the country.  I bowl to achieve my personal best, even at my age.  When I can't roll a ball anymore, I'll get one with a handle and keep on.



Me too,but most people are in for the money. I never get in the pots anyway.
I always say I'm bad enough without bagging. What days do you bowl I Dixie Bowl?
Dare

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On a second note I just bought a Pink Black Widow...seems like everyone
around here is throwing it now. I'll see
Oldbowler

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare



Me too,but most people are in for the money. I never get in the pots anyway.
I always say I'm bad enough without bagging. What days do you bowl I Dixie Bowl?


I bowl in a Senior practice league at Dixie at 12:30 on Mondays that costs $4.00 with free coffee.  No obligation, just show up when you can and bowl.  Lots of room for new bowlers.  Tuesdays I bowl at 12:30 in a for real league with all the side pots you'd ever, (or never) want to enter.  That costs $11.00 with an absentee fee of just $4.00 to cover the prize fund.  There are vacancies waiting to be filled by some senior bowler.  Both leagues are just fun for me, but I'm bowling the best I have in awhile, averaging over 200 every session.

Drop by some time, I'm the old guy with the trimmed white beard.  LOL

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Dare

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbowler


I bowl in a Senior practice league at Dixie at 12:30 on Mondays that costs $4.00 with free coffee.  No obligation, just show up when you can and bowl.  Lots of room for new bowlers.  Tuesdays I bowl at 12:30 in a for real league with all the side pots you'd ever, (or never) want to enter.  That costs $11.00 with an absentee fee of just $4.00 to cover the prize fund.  There are vacancies waiting to be filled by some senior bowler.  Both leagues are just fun for me, but I'm bowling the best I have in awhile, averaging over 200 every session.

Drop by some time, I'm the old guy with the trimmed white beard.  LOL



I started a league on Friday's at King Pin. Unusual that if you miss you
don't pay anything.Prize money is based on how many games you bowl
and subs get prize money too. 34 teams 11 bucks to bowl. If I walk in I'll
be the distinguished looking guy with silver hair 
CObowler

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by avabob
A lot of studies have shown that even at 100% the high average usually wins



I have seen some of those studies, too.  They go against basic common sense and my own personal observations.

The higher average bowlers - the 190s, 200s, 210s - generally have peaked at their individual skill levels and will post basically the same scores month after month all season.  They will bowl over average about half the time.   

The lower average bowlers tend to improve throughout an 8-month season.  They will bowl over average far more than half the time, even as their averages inch upward a couple of pins per month.   

A 100% handicap league favors the bowlers who start low and improve during the season.  That is why I believe the fairest system is 90% handicap.  The 10% edge to the best bowlers is about equal to the natural improvement of a lower average.  

Of course, this all assumes everyone is bowling to the best of their ability and not intentionally sandbagging in the first half of the season.
Oldbowler

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CObowler



I have seen some of those studies, too.  They go against basic common sense and my own personal observations.

The higher average bowlers - the 190s, 200s, 210s - generally have peaked at their individual skill levels and will post basically the same scores month after month all season.  They will bowl over average about half the time.   

The lower average bowlers tend to improve throughout an 8-month season.  They will bowl over average far more than half the time, even as their averages inch upward a couple of pins per month.   

A 100% handicap league favors the bowlers who start low and improve during the season.  That is why I believe the fairest system is 90% handicap.  The 10% edge to the best bowlers is about equal to the natural improvement of a lower average.  

Of course, this all assumes everyone is bowling to the best of their ability and not intentionally sandbagging in the first half of the season.


Unfortunately, sandbagging exists.  We bowled yesterday against a team with two of the highest average bowlers (I am second high) and they lost the second game because their anchor bowler missed a ten pin in the tenth frame.  The next game he deliberately missed everything.  Was he just a poor sport, or deliberately bagging?  I don't know, but I can tell you I lost respect for him.  I was hurting but pushed myself to score as high as I could since I won't anyone claim I am sandbagging my average.

Is the handicapping fair?  I guess that depends on what side of the scale you are on.

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avabob

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Reply with quote  #13 
If you have a team of new bowlers who are improving the argument against 100% handicap is valid. However in most situations the higher average bowlers are more inclined to perform well in the clutch late in a game compared to lower average bowlers. Also we are talking about over the course of a season. Lots of anecdotal examples of a bowler or team getting hot and shooting way over their average on a given night.

Really makes no difference to me, but I think the analysis is generally valid
themrfreeze

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbowler


Unfortunately, sandbagging exists.  We bowled yesterday against a team with two of the highest average bowlers (I am second high) and they lost the second game because their anchor bowler missed a ten pin in the tenth frame.  The next game he deliberately missed everything.  Was he just a poor sport, or deliberately bagging?


Doesn't matter.  If you think an opponent is sandbagging immediately bring your concern to the league secretary so he/she can see what's going on.  If they determine the player is sandbagging, the score can be thrown out.


CObowler

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Reply with quote  #15 
If the League rules that sandbagging has taken place, the Secretary must then keep two sets of averages for the bowlers involved -- one for weekly handicaps, with the sandbagged games excluded and the other for end-of-season average prizes, including the sandbagged games.     
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