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Bflem55

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Getting back into the game 20 years ago I bowled a lot and my highest average was 206. I’m 36 now and in good shape I went last week to a well respected pro shop and bought a pickup ball and a DV8 frequency. My issue is I’m not sure exactly how to grip the ball so I’m underneath it ... all I can throw is a perfect straight ball with no rev. If I cup my wrist I can’t take the ball back that far and it throws me off balance. Could I possibly be gripping the ball wrong ?
Oldbowler

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bflem55
Getting back into the game 20 years ago I bowled a lot and my highest average was 206. I’m 36 now and in good shape I went last week to a well respected pro shop and bought a pickup ball and a DV8 frequency. My issue is I’m not sure exactly how to grip the ball so I’m underneath it ... all I can throw is a perfect straight ball with no rev. If I cup my wrist I can’t take the ball back that far and it throws me off balance. Could I possibly be gripping the ball wrong ?


Best advise I can give is to go on line and look up bowling releases, or "how to hook a bowling ball", and see what you can find.  There are excellent tutorials available these days.  Some of the best I have seen are by JR Raymond.  If your pro shop didn't discuss grip and release with you prior to selling you equipment, shame on them.  They can't properly fit you if they don't know anything about your game or intentions.

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Reply with quote  #3 
You mush have some idea on grip if you averaged 200. Everybody has
their own preference. I like my thumb hole tight and the fingers not
so tight

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Bucketofslawski

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I doubt that the problem is "finger pressure".

First, you are returning to the game after a 20-year absence, correct? Equipment has evolved, lane conditions have changed, and you might not remember precisely how you used to deliver the ball. You are 36 now, so you last bowled regularly as a teenager?

If you averaged as high as 206 you must have thrown at least a small hook, because straight ball bowlers cannot carry enough strikes to average over 200. How big of a hook did you have back then?

How did the driller know where your ball track was in order to lay out the ball properly? This isn't the old days of pancake-shaped weight blocks (though spare balls and low-priced "entry-level" balls still use them). Modern balls have odd-shaped cores which create an imbalance, and if the ball is drilled "wrong" for your track might inhibit hook as well as enhance it. These more advanced cores were already being used 20 years ago, but back then were relatively new. While many "layouts" will produce some hook with an ordinary release some combinations are ineffective with some releases. Did you bring in an old ball? Did he even ask?  I find it hard to believe that a reputable driller today will attempt to lay out a ball without knowing this, but if he was in a hurry and trying to make a sale to a 'new' bowler...

Modern lane conditions often put plenty of oil in the middle of the lane, and will (usually) hook more from an outside angle. Can you hook the ball from outside the 2nd arrow? Try throwing up first arrow to avoid the "puddle". If your release will produce a hook it should be obvious there.



bowlersensi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucketofslawski
I doubt that the problem is "finger pressure".

First, you are returning to the game after a 20-year absence, correct? Equipment has evolved, lane conditions have changed, and you might not remember precisely how you used to deliver the ball. You are 36 now, so you last bowled regularly as a teenager?


Quote:
straight ball bowlers cannot carry enough strikes to average over 200.


That's not  accurate, a good straight ball bowler can carry plenty of strikes and average over 200. It only takes a couple of strikes (mainly a double somewhere in the game) and picking your spares up consistently. But it requires you too learn to bowl well.


Quote:
How did the driller know where your ball track was in order to lay out the ball properly? This isn't the old days of pancake-shaped weight blocks (though spare balls and low-priced "entry-level" balls still use them). Modern balls have odd-shaped cores which create an imbalance, and if the ball is drilled "wrong" for your track might inhibit hook as well as enhance it. These more advanced cores were already being used 20 years ago, but back then were relatively new. While many "layouts" will produce some hook with an ordinary release some combinations are ineffective with some releases. Did you bring in an old ball? Did he even ask?  I find it hard to believe that a reputable driller today will attempt to lay out a ball without knowing this, but if he was in a hurry and trying to make a sale to a 'new' bowler...


He doesn't need to be worrying about PAPs and "Layouts" yet.

For a bowler who bowled 20 years ago as a teenager and just now coming back, finding their "ball track" meaning the P.A.P. (Positive Axis Point) would be useless.

Especially from a ball used 20 years ago,( if they even still had one) or if they used a loaner the PSO had that happened to fit and went out on the lanes and rolled it.

For all intents and purposes they would be a new bowler again and won't have a stable PAP that would be useful.

Because His release will be changing has he relearns to bowl and adjusts his fit, which will in turn affect his PAP location until it stabilizes.

In a case like this you would use a generic PAP (typically 5" over and 1" up) and a basic roll type layout that won't get them into trouble.

The main thing for him now is make sure the fit is right and get some type of basic coaching to get back up to speed.

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Bucketofslawski

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Reply with quote  #6 
I have to disagree on one of your points here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlersensi
That's not  accurate, a good straight ball bowler can carry plenty of strikes and average over 200. It only takes a couple of strikes (mainly a double somewhere in the game) and picking your spares up consistently. But it requires you too learn to bowl well.


When I say straight I mean straight. Straight balls do not read a lane pattern, are not helped by high-scoring patterns, and carry too poorly to expect a double a game without also leaving the occasional split. Anyone accurate enough to hit the pocket most of the time with a straight ball isn't merely a "good" straight player, that is a fairly high accuracy level. I have watched good league players, years ago when balls hooked less, who throw straight and almost-straight balls and rarely missed any non-split spare, and they topped out in the 190-195 range, with 185-189 being more typical.

There are players who score very well with a small hook, around 8-10 boards or a bit more, which IS capable of reading a lane pattern and getting help from a typical house shot. With this amount of hook would be much easier to hit the pocket consistently compared to a straight ball, and in today's environment such a small hook is considered a straight ball by many. I think this is the type of bowler you are referring to.

The main issue, as I see it, it the fact (assuming the bowler's memory is correct) that he averaged 200+ at least once. That implies a particular advanced skill level, so we are not discussing a beginner here. My assumption that he used to throw a somewhat effective hook is a guess, but I believe it to be on solid ground. Bowling isn't extremely difficult (but being consistently good is a different story). If you had fair timing, reasonable accuracy, and an OK release 20 years ago you would be rusty today but you would still have some idea what to do. I know people who took ten years or more off (job and family responsibilities) and jumped back in and are averaging pretty close to what they what they did before.

I only brought up the layout issue because it is possible that there is something odd about this bowler's release and ball track which could render a "standard" layout ineffective. It might not be likely, but the idea that someone who formerly averaged 200 would be unable to produce a playable reaction with modern equipment isn't very likely either. Diagnosing the problem without actually seeing the bowler is, well, guesswork and asking the right questions.
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Reply with quote  #7 
I didn't bowl from 89 till 99 and I had averaged 206 in 86. I averaged 194 once a
week that year. It comes back a little at a time.

A  pap is important no matter what your average is. That what makes the ball
do what's it's made for. 

Try a straight ball on oily lanes and that double you need might be hard to get

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bowlersensi

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucketofslawski
I have to disagree on one of your points here...


Quote:
When I say straight I mean straight.

So do I.

Quote:
Straight balls do not read a lane pattern, are not helped by high-scoring patterns,

True, straight balls take the lane pattern out play and are not helped by high-scoring patterns. But they are also not particularly hindered by the conditions either.


Quote:
and carry too poorly to expect a double a game without also leaving the occasional split.

I have to disagree

Quote:
Anyone accurate enough to hit the pocket most of the time with a straight ball isn't merely a "good" straight player, that is a fairly high accuracy level.

It might be considered "fairly high" accuracy level today, given that the majority of league bowlers today spray the ball all over the lane.


Quote:
I have watched good league players, years ago when balls hooked less, who throw straight and almost-straight balls and rarely missed any non-split spare, and they topped out in the 190-195 range, with 185-189 being more typical.

I never said that the majority throwing straight balls would be averaging over 200, just that it could be done.


Quote:
There are players who score very well with a small hook, around 8-10 boards or a bit more, which IS capable of reading a lane pattern and getting help from a typical house shot. With this amount of hook would be much easier to hit the pocket consistently compared to a straight ball, and in today's environment such a small hook is considered a straight ball by many. I think this is the type of bowler you are referring to.


Yes a hook ball is preferred, it allows for greater entry angles which increases strike percentages greatly and today's equipment is designed just for that. They allow players to take advantage of the soft conditions and provide wide margins of error on less than perfect shots. Which is why averages and scores are so inflated these days.


Quote:
The main issue, as I see it, it the fact (assuming the bowler's memory is correct) that he averaged 200+ at least once. That implies a particular advanced skill level, so we are not discussing a beginner here.


Maybe not a just picked up a ball first time beginner, But as a junior bowler that's been out it for 20 years. He's starting back from square one.



My assumption that he used to throw a somewhat effective hook is a guess, but I believe it to be on solid ground. Bowling isn't extremely difficult (but being consistently good is a different story). If you had fair timing, reasonable accuracy, and an OK release 20 years ago you would be rusty today but you would still have some idea what to do. I know people who took ten years or more off (job and family responsibilities) and jumped back in and are averaging pretty close to what they what they did before.

Quote:
I only brought up the layout issue because it is possible that there is something odd about this bowler's release and ball track which could render a "standard" layout ineffective.


While that could happen, What's more likely in this case is he's 20 yrs. rusty with his release.

If there is a problem with a bowler's release that's affecting ball motion adversely that has to be determined and addressed first before looking at and tweaking layouts.

Buying a new ball or changing layouts to compensate for a poor release is just putting a bandage on the problem and in the long run won't serve you if you want to go to a higher level.

Quote:
It might not be likely, but the idea that someone who formerly averaged 200 would be unable to produce a playable reaction with modern equipment isn't very likely either.


But that is exactly what happened to many pro bowlers who had high averages when Reactive resin balls came out, The resin didn't work like the Urethane balls they were use to and They couldn't make the conversion to the modern game.

Quote:
Diagnosing the problem without actually seeing the bowler is, well, guesswork and asking the right questions.


True the internet is good for basic info, but doesn't replace a coach on the lanes with you.

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Reply with quote  #9 
I've been bowling more years than I like to remember and I can't
recall one bowler that averaged 200  with a straight ball. Even if' 
you luck out and get a double you can't have any opens

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bowlersensi

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bflem55
Getting back into the game 20 years ago I bowled a lot and my highest average was 206. I’m 36 now and in good shape I went last week to a well respected pro shop and bought a pickup ball and a DV8 frequency. My issue is I’m not sure exactly how to grip the ball so I’m underneath it ... all I can throw is a perfect straight ball with no rev. If I cup my wrist I can’t take the ball back that far and it throws me off balance. Could I possibly be gripping the ball wrong ?


Well we need to get this topic back on the OP's org. question.

We'll assume that since you said it was a "well respected pro shop" the PSO did know what he was doing in regard to fit and layout.

The DV8 frequency is a good ball (I hope you got the free Lime Luster spare ball that comes with the DV8 Freq. and didn't buy one.).

It's a pretty low Rg asymmetrical ball and comes with a 500/2000 OOB surface, it's geared toward a med. / heavy oil conditions. So depending on the your speed and conditions you might want to smooth the surface up a little bit.

The problem most likely just your release, something like coming straight up the back of the ball etc.

The best option of course is getting a coach, someone to help you on the lane.

Baring that, one place you could start to remove the rust after 20yrs is by doing the foul line drill. It can help you with balance and release, Search for this on youtube and for proper bowling releases.

Example:
Teen Masters Skill Experience video #4 from Kegel Training Center.


KTC Bowling Drills - Foul Line Drill





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Reply with quote  #11 
In regards to a earlier post about pap not being important. In layman's terms
you can drill the holes on the ball anywhere you want.

I guess that's one way to throw a straight and I mean straight ball

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bowlersensi

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare
In regards to a earlier post about pap not being important. In layman's terms
you can drill the holes on the ball anywhere you want.

I guess that's one way to throw a straight and I mean straight ball


Your layman's terms are bunch of malarkey.

Nowhere in my posts did I say that the pap was not important!

I said that trying to get his pap now would be useless because his pap would be too unstable too to be  used effectively in laying out a ball properly for him at this point do to his release issues from not having bowled in 20years.

His pap is going to be changing too much until he gets his release back to being consistent and not rolling a dead straight ball.

Once his release has become consistent and his pap stabilized, then you get his pap and use that for a more effective layout.

So at this point using a generic pap location with a basic layout is fine it's not going to cause the ball to just go straight.



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Reply with quote  #13 
I call them as I see them...malarkey included
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