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Beeswaxhead

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Posts: 62
Reply with quote  #16 
How in the hell is it unfair by putting a low-scoring, tough challenging shot out there, where both sides of the lane are evenly oiled heavily gutter-to-gutter 43 feet down the lane similar to the Old US Open? How is it unfair with oil 1-board to 1-board only 26 feet down? THATS BOWLING AND THATS HOW BOWLING SHOULD STILL BE. Sports were meant to be challenging. This stupid garbage that they did 3 years ago at the PBA World Series putting oil out 43 feet long and leaving gutters wide open,was stupid and ludicrous. The scores were ridiculously high and the purpose of long-heavy oil, is to make it more difficult to get to the pocket. Long oil means taking away the gutters. Scratch bowling is supposed to be a challenge.This idea that USBC is coming up with to make sanctioned scratch bowling mostly tough shot and let the handicap league bowlers bowl on their “cake crap” easy joke conditions, is a great idea.
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Patrick J Yarns
Oldbowler

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_DeDowney


Old bowler , with all due respect, it’s just an opinion and I’m sure you mean well, but ..it sounds like you are ok for a sport , in this case bowling , to manipulate a perceived invisible environment to benefit an individual or a group of individuals to line their pockets or hope to bolster their Venue’s entertainment value?
Do you think that’ s ok when any other number of individuals participating are purposely put at a disadvantage because of a secret predetermined decision to put them at a disadvantage? But let’s not call it cheating.
It was ok for all those seasons when a tour had a predetermined plan of how many wins , how much winnings , how high a scoring average a left handed bowler would be “given” the potential to achieve ? Records were kept on LH. Vs. RH stats for what else other than to manipulate outcomes favorable to who ? Many seasons I felt for the lefties that had to bowl an entire season knowing they only had a small number of weeks for a chance at a show or a win.
It’s unfair for anyone with skin in the game to not have an honest and sporting chance as everyone else. has, Every week.
As far as other sports go there is a transparency so we can see what’s going on. With the exception of spit balls , deflate gate the worst factor might be crooked refs.
How would you feel about some crooked referees working at the behest of some of the coaches or owners? Is that ok as long as people watch and buy the sponsors products ?
  
You caught the message.  Good for you.  You are right, I DON'T care what they do at the "professional sports" level because in my opinion it's all a racket.  I don't watch any of it because it reminds me that they are all just spectacles put on to divert people's attention from the real issues in life.  If the amount of money wasted on pro sports were put to good use, things would be majorly different around the world.  But you are right, that's just my own personal opinion.

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Old bowlers never die, they just fade away.
Bob_DeDowney

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Posts: 57
Reply with quote  #18 
Old bowler, I’m glad you didn’t take offense because I did my best to not offend. I understand how you feel and think about the present situation because I assume you’ve been around for long enough to know what bowling was and What it’s become.
I guess you had some respect for bowling years ago.

I think even in the 60’s, 50’s and before some Hanky, -panky, occurred and here is what happened as I saw with my eyes. The fall-back shot gave the bowler (right hand) about a single board of swing area maybe 2 boards for a chance at wall shot.
When centers started using wall shots they could get the shot out 3-4 boards beyond the “oil line” using rubber and plastic balls and a bit more when the cranker was born.
The higher friction urethane balls increased that area because they could stray farther outside and have more “ grab” to get back to the head pin.
Resin balls have become outright trickery, with the ability to slide reliably in the Oil and grab like the teeth of a Piranha out of the oil .They give the lane man a wide latitude to use “patterns” that generously allow certain bowlers to swing shots from the left gutter to third arrow or outside of first arrow and the ball hooks or doesn’t and both shots hit the head pin and strike, - a lot. Which was the “good” shot ? the one swung out to the edge or the one tugged to third arrow ?
Oldbowler

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Posts: 390
Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_DeDowney
Old bowler, I’m glad you didn’t take offense because I did my best to not offend. I understand how you feel and think about the present situation because I assume you’ve been around for long enough to know what bowling was and What it’s become.
I guess you had some respect for bowling years ago.

I think even in the 60’s, 50’s and before some Hanky, -panky, occurred and here is what happened as I saw with my eyes. The fall-back shot gave the bowler (right hand) about a single board of swing area maybe 2 boards for a chance at wall shot.
When centers started using wall shots they could get the shot out 3-4 boards beyond the “oil line” using rubber and plastic balls and a bit more when the cranker was born.
The higher friction urethane balls increased that area because they could stray farther outside and have more “ grab” to get back to the head pin.
Resin balls have become outright trickery, with the ability to slide reliably in the Oil and grab like the teeth of a Piranha out of the oil .They give the lane man a wide latitude to use “patterns” that generously allow certain bowlers to swing shots from the left gutter to third arrow or outside of first arrow and the ball hooks or doesn’t and both shots hit the head pin and strike, - a lot. Which was the “good” shot ? the one swung out to the edge or the one tugged to third arrow ?


I've been bowling on and off for 62 years.  My Dad was a local semi pro and taught me well.  I quit bowling in 1998 because it became obvious that the bowling centers, equipment suppliers and the associations were in a race to produce conditions to give away bowling to the highest bidder.  I picked it up again in 2014 purely as a recreational activity.  The changes between 1998 and 2014 were incredible.  I watch the old bowling videos to see real bowlers with talent bowl on realistic conditions.  As an old bowler I still average 199 or better only half trying.  Watching modern bowling is boring.  I think Ryan Ciminelli was right, they do cater to whomever they want to win.  Pete isn't marketable anymore, so block him out.  Show off the young guns to suck the young viewers in.  Keep a few of the war horses in the stable to appease the over 40 crowd. It is a business, not a sport.  Just my opinion.

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Old bowlers never die, they just fade away.
Bob_DeDowney

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Posts: 57
Reply with quote  #20 
Oldbowler, I appreciate your history and your sharing it. You make some very good points and I agree 100%.. I started when you did but was on/off for a few decades.
Unlike golf where players can choose differently rated courses to measure their progress , bowling offers nothing but a super soft environment that is so forgiving it's not possible to honestly evaluate ones true performance , and when neglected can become a nightmare that measures nothing except perhaps your patience .
Neither of which is an honest evaluation of one's true abilities.
Bob_DeDowney

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Posts: 57
Reply with quote  #21 
P.J.

I would not say the oiling conditions you describe  are unfair . They could be very fair.    If.

If those oilings actually maintained their original properties.

You've bowled on lanes when the oil has migrated and/or  been sucked up by the modern balls.

Even a flat shot can have a track burned into it and that tracking can benefit some bowlers more than others,
Changing lanes can be an advantage for some and a disadvantage for others,

I agree with those experts that believe a truly honest and challenging condition is not possible with modern balls and the amount of oil they require to be applied to a lane. I hate tricked-up challenging conditions.

Why do bowlers change balls and/or change lines ? How important can that be ?
Why does Belmote move left,move left,move left.move left,move left etc.

Walled lanes , Higher  performance  hook-in-the-box balls and easier falling  pins were not designed and used so great bowlers could shoot higher scores. In fact these "Improvements" drove too many great bowlers into retirement.
Great bowlers and Good Bowlers had the advantage of having superior physical skills , accuracy, timing and repeatability.
These great "Improvements"  were designed for bad bowlers. So Poorly thrown shots with the aid of ball performance and lane oil  can all too often win over those superior skills..

Len "Phantom" Nicholson , former PBA Lane Maintenance pioneer said that to produce the fairest possible condition he would limit the balls to plastic and use less than 10% of the oil volume presently used and the oil condition would have almost no change for an eight game squad.
This has been a no-no for USBC because it could curb ball sales.

Some proof of his claim is evident in the Teen Masters Tournaments.
Gary Beck , the Director has been running those events with 25 ft and 32 ft  flatter patterns using a combination of 6 units or 12 units of oil .changing each squad with exclusive Teen Masters balls  made of plastic and urethane.

After several annual events all reports show that the kids love it. (I wish a local center would offer that.)
And some of these kids are proving  that you don't need  artificial equipment to attain high scores.

By the way, Remember Sport Condition 2000 ?
Remember PBA Sport condition events ? Anybody for a thread on that?
 
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